Re: [ranchos] Re: Juan v. Juan Jose v. Jose Francisco

[Alberto Duarte <albertodua@...>]

An Observation and Sad Note:
I believe it was not unusual for a son not to have the
same last names of his mother and father.  He
sometimes would take a different last name altogether
(probably because he was baptized with a different
name). 

I found a Spanish soldier from Jerez de la Frontera,
in 1575, that may have been a relative, that took the
last name of Andres Duarte and his mother was a
Rodriguez and has father was a Gonzalez!  This soldier
came to Zacatecas in 1576.  After searching for him
for more than 10 years, I found a record where he had
drowned in the Philippines sea in 1603 during a storm
on his way back to new Spain (Mexico).

Alberto Duarte

Santa Maria, California
--- Erlinda Castanon-Long <longsjourney@...>
wrote:

> I was once told that many of the early scribes in
> Mexico were Portuquese and that they spelled things
> differently too. If many of the people did not read
> or write and didn't see what was being put into the
> record any chance for correction wasn't there.  I'm
> told the custume was for the mother to stay in bed
> for 40 days so she probably wasn't at the baptism,
> I'm assuming the godparents and father took the baby
> to the church.  I've had some records so mixed up
> it's almost as though they put bits of paper with
> information in the wrong order. I have a grandmother
> as mother and son as grandfather on one record.  My
> lines were not city people but farmers and laborer's
> living in Ranchos, the odds of them all reading and
> writing is very remote.  I was told it was not
> unusual to pay bribes to have a child listed as
> Espanol so  thier chances in life would be better. 
> And the fact that they had home births complicates
> things too.  I'm just grateful there are any records
> at all considering the
>  hard times of rural Mexico.
>  
> Linda in Everett Wa.
> 
> Edward Serros <ed@...> wrote:
> Joseph,
> 
> In all the previous posting, I think you get the
> idea of what went on in the past regarding 
> Spanish first names and surnames. I have reviewed
> thousands of documents from the 
> 18th, 19th and 20th century in Mexico.  It appears
> quite clear that there was a relatively 
> lax attitude toward names and even surnames in
> Spanish communities. In my Felguerez 
> line, one of the mates (depending on what document
> you were reading) went by Dolores 
> Garcia or Maria Encarnacion Garcia or Carnacion
> Garcia. Same person. The hard part is 
> when a family decides to change the last name
> altogether, e.g. Don Juan de Oñate is 
> classic example. 
> 
> I could complicate the issue more by speculating on
> the literacy rate at any point in time/
> location and how sober the padre was when he was
> writing but I won't go there.
> 
> Ed
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alberto Duarte
> <albertodua@y...> wrote:
> > You think that is confusing? My great grandmother
> > Maria Dolores Vasquez Tovar from Jerez had her
> name
> > written sometimes as: Maria Dolores Tobar, Maria
> > Dolores Tovar, or Maria Vasquez Tovar, or Maria
> > Vasquez Tobar.
> > 
> > Alberto.
> > Santa Maria, California
> > 
> > --- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > > Joseph,
> > > 
> > > After many years of searching the IGI and
> > > microfilms, I think that everyone in Mexico was
> > > named Jose or Maria, or Jose Maria, or Juan,
> since I
> > > run into the same things you have.  It seems
> that
> > > the priests would also often abbreviate these
> three
> > > common names.  Juan was often used with Juan
> Jose or
> > > Juan Francisco. More often I see Jose--Jose
> David,
> > > Jose Gabriel, Jose Miguel, etc.  Sometimes I see
> > > Juan de Dios or Jesus de la Cruz.  Would that
> last
> > > one be called just Cruz by his family?  Yet I
> never
> > > heard of anyone called just Dios. I have seen
> people
> > > named Santiago or Santacruz or just Santos.
> Maria is
> > > sometimes Maria de los Santos, or Maria de los
> > > Dolores, or Maria de Jesus, etc.  I have also
> > > noticed in the films that all children baptised
> or
> > > born on or near a certain day were given the
> same
> > > saint's name.  So in a village there might by
> > > several people with the same saint's name and
> > > surname, making my search for one particular
> person
> > > harder since I have to search then for the
> parents'
> > > names or other clues to be sure I am researching
> the
> > > right person.  I remember as a small child that
> > > people would sometimes exclaim, "Jesus, Jose y
> > > Maria!" when something excited them.
> > > 
> > > An example:  My great-great grandmother in Dona
> Ana
> > > County, New Mexico was named Maria de Jesus
> Medina. 
> > > I found a lady by that name living in 1880
> married
> > > to a Jose Provencio, the name of my great-great
> > > grandfather. but instead of living in Chamberino
> NM,
> > > this couple lived in La Mesilla, about 20 miles
> > > north, and not in Chamberino where I was told
> they
> > > had always lived.  I later finally found the
> other
> > > couple, the one I am descended from, living in
> > > Chamberino at the same time.  The ladies were
> both
> > > Maria de Jesus Medina, the men were my
> great-great
> > > grandfather Jose Eligio Provencio and the other
> Jose
> > > Provencio was Jose Maria Provencio.  It took me
> > > years to find I was following leads on the wrong
> > > Maria de Jesus Medina.  I kept wondering why her
> > > husband kept changing his name from Jose Maria
> to
> > > Jose Eligio.
> > > 
> > > So, in searching the IGI, if at first I don't
> find
> > > someone by the name known to his/her family, I
> will
> > > enter as a first name simply Jose, or Maria, or
> Je.,
> > > or Jn. or Ma. or Mra. and I find what I am
> looking
> > > for.  In the actual records, I do see that
> > > sometimes, rarely, a person was baptised simply
> as
> > > just Jose or Maria.
> > > 
> > > Emilie Garcia
> > > Port Orchard, WA
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Joseph Puentes
> > > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:53 PM
> > > To: LosRanchos
> > > Subject: [ranchos] Juan v. Juan Jose v. Jose
> > > Francisco
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm pondering some first names. I've got a
> relative,
> > > Vicente Diaz who had 9 children but in every
> example
> > > and in his first wedding his father was listed
> as
> > > Jose or Josse Diaz.  
> > > 
> > > Now isn't listing a person as Jose Diaz over and
> > > over again the equivilent of saying that he
> didn't
> > > know or remember his name?  
> > > 
> > > Or that something was up with the name that he
> > > didn't want to give it?  Are there examples of
> > > people in the late 1790's and early 1800's being
> > > named "Jose" by itself without another name, the
> > > real name? I know that in later times there are
> > > examples of just plain "Jose" being used but I'm
> > > unsure of the used of "Jose" only in the later
> time
> > > period.
> > > 
> > > okay so then at 62 years of age around 1844
> Vicente
> > > Diaz remarries and lists his father as Juan Jose
> > > Diaz then he dies around 1849 and his father is
> > > listed as Juan Diaz.  
> > > 
> > > Something is fishy here and I think that Vicente
> > > really didn't have a good handle on what his
> > > father's name was. I have a brother of his who
> also
> > > listed his father as Jose Diaz over and over
> again
> > > but whose father on his marriage certificate is
> > > listed as Francisco Diaz
> > > 
> > > And I found a Jose Francisco Diaz married to
> > > Concepcion Castaneda (correct name for the
> spouse of
> > > Francisco, Juan and Juan Jose in every case) who
> had
> > > a Vicente Diaz in the right place (Cuculiten,
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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