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I was once told that many of the early scribes in Mexico were Portuquese and that they spelled things differently too. If many of the people did not read or write and didn't see what was being put into the record any chance for correction wasn't there. I'm told the custume was for the mother to stay in bed for 40 days so she probably wasn't at the baptism, I'm assuming the godparents and father took the baby to the church. I've had some records so mixed up it's almost as though they put bits of paper with information in the wrong order. I have a grandmother as mother and son as grandfather on one record. My lines were not city people but farmers and laborer's living in Ranchos, the odds of them all reading and writing is very remote. I was told it was not unusual to pay bribes to have a child listed as Espanol so thier chances in life would be better. And the fact that they had home births complicates things too. I'm just grateful
there are any records at all considering the hard times of rural Mexico.
Linda in Everett Wa.
Edward Serros <ed@...> wrote:
Joseph,
In all the previous posting, I think you get the idea of what went on in the past regarding
Spanish first names and surnames. I have reviewed thousands of documents from the
18th, 19th and 20th century in Mexico. It appears quite clear that there was a relatively
lax attitude toward names and even surnames in Spanish communities. In my Felguerez
line, one of the mates (depending on what document you were reading) went by Dolores
Garcia or Maria Encarnacion Garcia or Carnacion Garcia. Same person. The hard part is
when a family decides to change the last name altogether, e.g. Don Juan de Oñate is
classic example.
I could complicate the issue more by speculating on the literacy rate at any point in time/
location and how sober the padre was when he was writing but I won't go there.
Ed
--- In
ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Alberto Duarte <albertodua@y...> wrote:
> You think that is confusing? My great grandmother
> Maria Dolores Vasquez Tovar from Jerez had her name
> written sometimes as: Maria Dolores Tobar, Maria
> Dolores Tovar, or Maria Vasquez Tovar, or Maria
> Vasquez Tobar.
>
> Alberto.
> Santa Maria, California
>
> --- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@h...> wrote:
>
> > Joseph,
> >
> > After many years of searching the IGI and
> > microfilms, I think that everyone in Mexico was
> > named Jose or Maria, or Jose Maria, or Juan, since I
> > run into the same things you have. It seems that
> > the priests would also often abbreviate these three
> > common names. Juan was often used with Juan Jose or
> > Juan Francisco. More often I see Jose--Jose David,
> > Jose Gabriel, Jose Miguel, etc.
Sometimes I see
> > Juan de Dios or Jesus de la Cruz. Would that last
> > one be called just Cruz by his family? Yet I never
> > heard of anyone called just Dios. I have seen people
> > named Santiago or Santacruz or just Santos. Maria is
> > sometimes Maria de los Santos, or Maria de los
> > Dolores, or Maria de Jesus, etc. I have also
> > noticed in the films that all children baptised or
> > born on or near a certain day were given the same
> > saint's name. So in a village there might by
> > several people with the same saint's name and
> > surname, making my search for one particular person
> > harder since I have to search then for the parents'
> > names or other clues to be sure I am researching the
> > right person. I remember as a small child that
> > people would sometimes exclaim, "Jesus, Jose y
> >
Maria!" when something excited them.
> >
> > An example: My great-great grandmother in Dona Ana
> > County, New Mexico was named Maria de Jesus Medina.
> > I found a lady by that name living in 1880 married
> > to a Jose Provencio, the name of my great-great
> > grandfather. but instead of living in Chamberino NM,
> > this couple lived in La Mesilla, about 20 miles
> > north, and not in Chamberino where I was told they
> > had always lived. I later finally found the other
> > couple, the one I am descended from, living in
> > Chamberino at the same time. The ladies were both
> > Maria de Jesus Medina, the men were my great-great
> > grandfather Jose Eligio Provencio and the other Jose
> > Provencio was Jose Maria Provencio. It took me
> > years to find I was following leads on the wrong
> > Maria de Jesus
Medina. I kept wondering why her
> > husband kept changing his name from Jose Maria to
> > Jose Eligio.
> >
> > So, in searching the IGI, if at first I don't find
> > someone by the name known to his/her family, I will
> > enter as a first name simply Jose, or Maria, or Je.,
> > or Jn. or Ma. or Mra. and I find what I am looking
> > for. In the actual records, I do see that
> > sometimes, rarely, a person was baptised simply as
> > just Jose or Maria.
> >
> > Emilie Garcia
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joseph Puentes
> > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:53 PM
> > To: LosRanchos
> > Subject: [ranchos] Juan v. Juan Jose v. Jose
> > Francisco
> >
> >
> > I'm pondering some first names. I've got a relative,
> > Vicente Diaz
who had 9 children but in every example
> > and in his first wedding his father was listed as
> > Jose or Josse Diaz.
> >
> > Now isn't listing a person as Jose Diaz over and
> > over again the equivilent of saying that he didn't
> > know or remember his name?
> >
> > Or that something was up with the name that he
> > didn't want to give it? Are there examples of
> > people in the late 1790's and early 1800's being
> > named "Jose" by itself without another name, the
> > real name? I know that in later times there are
> > examples of just plain "Jose" being used but I'm
> > unsure of the used of "Jose" only in the later time
> > period.
> >
> > okay so then at 62 years of age around 1844 Vicente
> > Diaz remarries and lists his father as Juan Jose
> > Diaz then he dies around 1849 and his
father is
> > listed as Juan Diaz.
> >
> > Something is fishy here and I think that Vicente
> > really didn't have a good handle on what his
> > father's name was. I have a brother of his who also
> > listed his father as Jose Diaz over and over again
> > but whose father on his marriage certificate is
> > listed as Francisco Diaz
> >
> > And I found a Jose Francisco Diaz married to
> > Concepcion Castaneda (correct name for the spouse of
> > Francisco, Juan and Juan Jose in every case) who had
> > a Vicente Diaz in the right place (Cuculiten,
> > Zacatecas) at the right time.
> >
> > so I'm wondering if my Juan Diaz or Juan Jose Diaz
> > is really Jose Francisco Diaz.
> >
> > I've got other information, indirect as it maybe,
> > that lends support to this theory. . . .I sure would
> >
like a shut and closed case but though there is a
> > multitude of records I can't seem to get that door
> > closed.
> >
> > Sounds like I"m reaching. . .
> >
> > joseph
> >
> >
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > Visit your group "ranchos" on the web.
> >
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> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
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