Re: Entierros

["Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@...>]

I just looked at my first informacion matrimonial film recently and 
there is a wealth of information in those... a bit of a waste of 
paper and ink, since a lot of it is the declarations of the husband 
and wife to be, which are obviously dictated by the priest and then 
the witnesses who attest to the verbatim same thing about the non-
consanguinity, single state of the couple, etc.  However, if the 
marriage record does not list parents, the informacion most 
definitely will... because of the consnguinity issue.

My problem with Marcos LEMUS and Maria Barbara YBARRA is that I 
cannot find their marriage record at all.  I don't even know what 
parrish they were married in.  Almost definitely not in Colotlan, 
where I would expect, because I have gone through the entire IGI 
extract for the relevant film and there is nothing that remotely 
approaches their names... a few Marcos with no last name but not 
married to any Marias or Barbaras.

There also appears to be no baptismal record for Marcos in Colotlan. 
I suspect Marcos may have been born and married married somewhere far 
from Totatiche.

There are not really any YBARRAs in Totatiche and the LEMUS family 
seems to disappear from Totatiche sometime in the mid-18th Century, 
which makes me think that they migrated back out of the region, and 
perhaps Marcos went back with his wife since the family had land 
there... the question is FROM WHERE?

I know that his probable grandfather who was granted the land where 
Marcos raised his children, including my gggggranfdfather (Felipe 
LEMUS) was from Puebla and that there are tons of LEMUS in Guanajuato 
around the relevant time...  Any ideas/leads?

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "readysetgo95814" <mcortez3@g...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Arturo and all,
> 
> I've been following this thread because I hit a brick wall on one 
of 
> my lines and had the same thought as Arturo--to look at the death 
> records.  However, a recent post by Jonathan got me thinking of 
> ordering the Informacion Matrimonial film.  I had not planned on 
> ordering that film because I have a copy of the marriage record for 
> the couple in question.  I've changed my mind since and I think 
I'll 
> take my chances with the Informacion Matrimonal for the couple.  I 
> may find more info there than in the death records.  I thought I 
> would mention that to you Arturo, in case that film is available 
for 
> the parrish you are interested in.
> 
> Maria
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" 
<auntyemfaustus@h...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Arturo,  again I have found the same things in the death records 
as 
> has Alicia.  I always thought my grandmother was an only child, but 
> when I checked birth and death records, I found that infant 
mortality 
> was high then.  Also, if a child survived only a few hours or days, 
> and was even baptized with a name, no one remembered that child 
since 
> they hadn't gotten to know it and the mothers in their pain and 
> sorrow preferred to forget and not mention them.  They had to 
> concentrate on the living.  
> > 
> > I found that my older relatives were only aware of those infants 
> who lived long enough to have been a big part of the family with 
> pictures, etc.  My mother Luisa had a sister born before her named 
> Luisa who only lived a few days, but she only knew of her other 
> living sister Emilia and one little cutie that she had a picture of 
> and remembered babysitting until the child died at nine months 
around 
> 1910.  I still have that picture of little Alejandra.  She was as 
> beautiful as an angel.  My mother said of all her younger siblings 
> that Alejandra had been the prettiest.  That is probably why they 
had 
> her picture taken.  Children were not immunized for diptheria, 
> measles, etc. then, so they often did not survive childhood 
> diseases.  How sad. 
> > 
> > Emilie Garcia
> > Port Orchard, WA ----
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Alicia Carrillo<mailto:alliecar@p...> 
> >   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com> 
> >   Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 9:01 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [ranchos] Entierros
> > 
> > 
> >   Arturo,
> > 
> >   I have looked at some films for entierros or defunciones for 
> Nochistlan Zac, therefore I can only speak of these findings. They 
> can be hit or miss, some are very explicit as to the cause of death 
> but very sparse in terms of familial connections. For example if it 
> was a spouse who died at child birth it will give the husband's 
name 
> but won't say who her parents are. Most of what I found in 
entierros 
> or defunciones did not give a lot of information about family 
> relations.
> > 
> >   It's good film to view for historical purposes. I gleaned from 
> some of these films that there was an epidemic in a certain area of 
> typhoid fever or that a high incidence of infants were dying of 
> infeccion del ombligo/infection of the umbilical cord which could 
> lead one to believe that they had little or no medical care at 
child 
> birth. There were many women who died de "nacimiento prematuro'' 
> which didn't make sense to me that it should be put in these terms. 
> Premature labor is not necessarily cause for the mother's death. 
It's 
> usually the birthing process whether premature or not.
> > 
> >   If it was a child who died it would give the child's parents' 
> name but not the grandparents. They are very explicit about the 
cause 
> of death, it could say murio de quemado (died as a result of burns) 
> or lo corno un toro,(was gored by a bull). You may not get much 
> information but I would say it's still worth your time to look at 
> these films. It provides a lens for viewing how people lived and 
died 
> in those times.
> > 
> >   I imagine today we might have many death certificates that 
would 
> say died of AIDS or of drug overdose or car accident, breast cancer 
> etc.
> > 
> >   These films were useful to me because when I had viewed film 
and 
> extracted data from birth or baptism certificates I would ask mom 
> about a certain uncle and she once said I didn't have an uncle by 
> that name. I researched the death records and found the death 
> certificate, murio de ½ hora de nacido,  mystery solved. 
> > 
> >   If you do view these films maybe you can give us a little 
insight 
> about your findings and the historical perspective. I hope this 
> helps..............Alicia Carrillo de San Jose, Ca
> > 
> >   Arturo Ramos <arturo.ramos2@v...> wrote:
> >     Can someone who has looked at films of parrish books listing 
> burials 
> >     tell me how extensive the information listed in these books 
> is?  Does 
> >     it list parents, survivors of the deceased?  I have two 
> particular 
> >     issues... one where I cannot connect an ancestor (Marcos 
LEMUS 
> m. Maria 
> >     Barbara YBARRA) to any one of his potential parents (children 
> of a 
> >     Felipe LEMUS that was the grantee of the land where Marcos 
> lived, his 
> >     children were born, etc.).  I cannot find a marriage or birth 
> record 
> >     for him...
> > 
> >     The other is that baptismal and marriage records for Jerez, 
> Zacatecas 
> >     seem to be missing for the crucial period at the end of the 
> 17th and 
> >     beginning of the 18th century when many families moved from 
> there to 
> >     Totatiche, Jalisco... so I am hoping that death records will 
> make the 
> >     connection.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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