Re: Family Tree DNA Project - Sephardim and Moors

["Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@...>]

Victor:

This is very insightful and valuable feedback.  I totally agree with 
you that one should not jump to any conclusions on this, especially 
with this haplogroup which seems to be so widely spread and undefined 
in terms of actual "ethnic" identity.

I suppose that the most valuable piece of news from this is that it 
gives me some idea as to the genotype of my Joseph Ramon Aranzazu, 
who as "expuesto" and taken in by a family.  The reason why I did 
this DNA test to begin with was to hopefully find someone with a 
direct lineage to his adoptive Aranzazu family and see if perhaps he 
was in fact an illegitimate child.

This definitely keeps that door open, as it is definite that this 
lineage is of Iberian origin (as was the adoptive father).


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "v.h.villarreal" <raices_regias@y...> 
wrote:
>
> Arturo,
> 
> Now we have another thing in common: E3b.  To compare your numbers
> with mine and with other E3b individuals go to this link
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/freemanDNAProject
> 
> I noticed that you quoted a thread from a while back where we 
discuss
> DNA testing and ethnicity.  I'm sure you're not the kind of person 
to
> draw hasty conclusions and that is good because E3b is not a
> haplogroup without controversy.  Misconceptions abound, particularly
> that one created by applying the wrong sematics to the field of
> genetics.  What I mean is the misuse of the word "semitic" as an
> adjective applicable to haplogroups E3b and others. 
> 
> This has been the source of much debate in circles dedicated to
> discussions about population genetics and genealogy.  It is true 
that
> a case can be made for a Sephardic ancestry, but just as easily a 
case
> can be made also for a Moorish, Berber,  Phoenician, Gypsy, Roman,
> Macedonian, Greek, etc.  ancestry, because this haplogroup can be
> found in so many cultures and places that were at one time or 
another
> in contact with the Iberian peninsula.  In other words, E3b does not
> automatically equates Sephardic lineage or anything else.  But if 
your
> family history reveals a strong tradition or other elements linked 
to
> Judaism then you can safely add your haplogroup as another argument
> towards that conclusion.
> 
> Just in case you haven't already searched and found these sites 
about E3b.
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...hg/YCC_E3b.html
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...l/haplo_e3b.htm
> 
> I'll keep in touch!
> 
> Victor
> 
> 
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Arturo Ramos" <arturo.ramos2@v...> 
wrote:
> >
> > I just got back the first set of results for my Y-DNA-12 marker 
and 
> > it places my paternal lineage in the E3b haplogroup... This 
> > haplogroup is related to ethnic groups originating in Southern 
Italy, 
> > Southeastern Europe and the Middle East.  Looks like this is a 
> > Sephardic lineage.
> > 
> > I will be getting back the remainder of the markers (13 through 
25) 
> > as well as the MtDNA (matrilineal) results in a couple of weeks.
> > 
> > I saw from previous posts that group members' maternal lines tend 
to 
> > be Haplogroup A. Is that correct?
> > 
> > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Villarreal" 
<vela_este@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Emilie,
> > > 
> > > As always, it is evident that you're doing your homework and 
usually
> > > marching one step ahead of the rest of us.
> > > 
> > > Like yourself, I have been most intrigued by all those stories 
that
> > > you mentioned about the early Spanish colonizers, particularly 
more 
> > so
> > > when I realised that the Y haplogroup to which I belong to is 
not 
> > the
> > > typical Western European haplogroup but one that is, as I 
previously
> > > said, very widespread all around the Mediterranean sea, 
including
> > > North Africa, the Middle East, the Balcans and, of course, the 
> > Iberian
> > > Peninsula.
> > > 
> > > As I understand many of our group here have not studied this 
topic 
> > in
> > > detail, I felt compelled to point out a couple of facts that I 
> > believe
> > > could be helpful to all:
> > > 
> > > Ethnicity is not determined alone by your DNA haplogroup.  In 
other
> > > words, having "X" haplogroup does not automatically place you 
in any
> > > ethnic group, regardless of all those ancient stories.  If your
> > > genealogical and historical research shows documented ancestral
> > > evidence of certain ethnicity AND your genetic testing shows a
> > > haplogroup correlated to the same ethnicity then you can start 
to
> > > assume the possibility that your ancestors might have been 
indeed 
> > such
> > > and such ethnicity.
> > > 
> > > By the same token, physical phenotype (physical traits like 
eye, 
> > hair
> > > or skin color, etc.) is not dependent or necessarily correlated 
to
> > > genetic haplogroup either.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps. One important advice for all is not to jump to 
easy
> > > conlusions right away.  ;)
> > > 
> > > Victor
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia" 
> > <auntyemfaustus@h...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Joseph,
> > > > 
> > > > That is so interesting about the DNA Project.   
> > > > 
> > > > I have talked with Mr. Greenspan (via e-mail), president of 
the
> > > Family Tree DNA project, several times.  He is very nice.  He 
says 
> > to
> > > e-mail him any time.  He is a professor at the University of 
> > Arizona.
> > >  I had seen a story about a Hispanic priest in Albuquerque who 
now
> > > wears both a cross and a Star of David, since the DNA project 
showed
> > > not only that he was of Jewish heritage, but of the highest 
order, 
> > the
> > > Cohanim, direct descendants of Moses and his brother Aaron.  Mr.
> > > Greenspan said that he started the project for Jews to find out 
what
> > > Jewish groups they belong to (where in the hierarchy they 
fit).  The
> > > highest is the Cohanim [priest], then there is the Levite 
[temple
> > > servant], everybody else is Ysraelite.
> > > > 
> > > > I have heard many stories that many of our early 15th century
> > > Spanish ancestors in Mexico were Sephardic Jews and Moors.  We 
are 
> > not
> > > related too much to the people that live in Spain now.  So 
Joseph, 
> > you
> > > are not really descended from an African slave, but maybe from 
> > someone
> > > with Moorish or Arab blood.  The Moors were the powers in Spain 
only
> > > until shortly before the ancestors of the current Spaniards had 
> > kicked
> > > them and the Jews and Arabs out.  A Spanish friend from the 
Basque
> > > country told me she was proud not to be "hija de moro ni de 
indio". 
> > > (She can't help it- the Basques are very proud).   
> > > > 
> > > > I knew that my father's surname OLAGUE is Basque, because he 
told 
> > me
> > > so.  They were fair, with blue eyes.  People in Mexico have 
told us
> > > that all Olagues descend from one Miguel Olague who together 
with 
> > his
> > > brothers went with the conquistador Don Juan de Onate to New 
Mexico 
> > in
> > > 1598.  They returned to Zacatecas shortly.  My maternal 
ancestors, 
> > the
> > > MARQUEZ, did stay and colonize New Mexico.  They were all 
Espanol
> > > until my great-great grandfather's time.  Somehow a  Piro 
Indian got
> > > in the family, thus he was dark, and on my mother's side the 
females
> > > look Indian (go figure).   
> > > > 
> > > > In Gary Felix' website I read this:  "It is widely believed 
that a
> > > large percentage of the earliest settlers of Mexico may have 
origins
> > > in the Middle East  and were a result of the expulsion of
> > > non-Christians out of Spain, just befoe the conquest of 
Mexico".  I
> > > believe this, since when we first saw pictures of Saddam 
Hussein, we
> > > yelled out "He looks just like Uncle Jess [my father's first 
cousin
> > > Jesus, whose mother looked very Moorish or Arab]!    
> > > > 
> > > > The project has Garzas [Garcias] with family lines in Northern
> > > Mexico [Jalisco?].  My husband was told in Mexico that he 
looked 
> > like
> > > a typical Norteno---quite tall and fair--a Tapatio--- and his
> > > Garcia-Cervantes line is from Encarnacion de Diaz in Jalisco.
> > > > 
> > > > Gotta go---thunderstorm above--don't want to fry this 
computer.
> > > > 
> > > > Emilie Garcia
> > > > Port Orchard, WA Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer 
> > download
> > > : http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> >
>