Arturo,
Yes, I know how clueless Anglos are about a lot of things. Have
you watched Jay Leno when he goes out with a microphone to college campuses and
asks them what they know about something simple that you would think they would
know or shows them a picture of someone in the news and they don't know what he
is talking about? It is scary. Jay does that, I think, to
demonstrate the sad level of education of all our young people today. We
are slouching towards Gomorrah.
And no, I think you are doing better than me if you have an unbroken
line of documentation that far back. I was told that all people
surnamed Olague with a long history in Zacatecas are descendants of Miguel
Olague who was with Onate when when he went to Nuevo Mexico in 1598. That
is my father's surname. Someone in Mexico told my sister about Miguel
Olague. Then when I went to the New Mexico State archives I was told that
all Marquez (my mother's surname) with a long history there descend from a
Geronimo Marquez who also was with Onate. The Olagues, I was told,
abandoned Onate and fled back to Zacatecas, but the Marquezes stayed and settled
in New Mexico then had to go to El Paso del Norte when the Indians revolted in
the north. What I cannot do yet, and maybe never will, is find an unbroken
line of documentation to know exactly how I descend from them. I have so
many documentation gaps, one even between my grandfather and me, since I cannot
find documentation of my father's birth in Jerez.
I have a book called "Origins of New Mexico Families" written by Fray
Anelico Chavez, and all the surnames in my mother's lines are listed down to the
late 1600s. I have that 20 year gap (one or two generations) there from
the late 1600's to the early 1700's. I have documentation only back
to the early 1700's in both my mother's and father's lines. In New Mexico
and El Paso del Norte, many records have been lost. Maybe what I should do
is work down from Geronimo Marquez, and Miguel Olague and see if I
can finally fill in the gaps that way, but I also need to find someone
who has already traced them down to at least the early 1700's so I can compare
lines.
I wish I could find published genealogies of Miguel Olague and
Geronimo Marquez that would take me back to Spain. The book by Fray
Angelico Chavez only starts with the conquest of New Mexico and takes me down to
about 1693 so I have a gap there to the early 1700's. I did find a muster
list in Gary Felix' website that lists Miguel Olague and his brothers with
Onate, and someone at the New Mexico Archives let me copy many pages from
a book called "Onate, Colonizer of New Mexico" by George P. Hammond and Agapito
Rey that gives many accounts of the Olagues during their brief stay there, and
also tells what Geronimo Marquez did then. The father of Miguel and his
two brothers was also named Miguel and he settled in Panuco,
Zacatecas around 1543.
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ----
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 3:45
PM
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de
Hijos Legitimos
How do you expect Americans to know the history
of
another country or group when they know very little
about their own
history? If you don't believe me,
just ask them.
Emile,
you are doing way better than me. I can only
trace my ancestors back
to 1675 in Panuco, Zacatecas.
Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria,
California
--- Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@...>
wrote:
> Yes, Arturo,
>
> It is so frustrating to know
that Anglos here don't
> have a clue about our history. They are
amazed when
> I request records for 1640, or mention that I just
>
downloaded a census for 1650, for example. They say
> "They have
records in Mexico that go back that
> far?--Who wrote them?" (they
have no clue as to how
> literate and educated the priests and
notaries
> public were). I tell them that I can trace some
>
ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas). I just
> can't trace all
the lines back that far and there
> are such huge gaps sometimes due to
the upheavals
> caused in the founding of a nation and opening up
of
> frontiers and the passage of time. I tell them that
>
Jerez where my father was born is on the National
> Register of
Historical Places in Mexico as a
> well-preserved Spanish Colonial city
founded in the
> early 1500s. They think their 1620 settlements
in
> Massachusetts are the oldest in the Americas. I
> don't even
think they realize how far back our
> pre-Colombian history goes, how
complex and advanced
> the civilization was for the time. My
sister (born
> in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss
at
> work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted this
> country
as your own----". My sister, aware of our
> mother's heritage in
New Mexico since the 1500's,
> blew up at him and told him, "My people
had been
> here for hundreds of years when your people were
>
still back in Ireland digging up potatoes!" I just
> cannot fathom
the arrogance and pride of such
> ignoramuses. They think their
ancestors were the
> only explorers and settlers, etc.
>
>
The folks at the local FHC seem interested when I
> tell them what I
find, such as whole families at
> haciendas wiped out at once by the
Indians (they
> think such things only happened in their Old
West),
> or that a church bell was dedicated in the 1600's
> but
had been manufactured in Spain in the 1500's,
> etc. My husband
was amazed when I told him that I
> found a record for a 9 year old
Indian boy whose
> god-parents had "bought" him. I also find that
some
> men used their mother's surname and never their
> father's
(making it such fun to trace), yet both
> parents are listed on the
baptismal record, and of
> course the Indians were given only first
names as
> were the Negro slaves in the American South.
>
>
Emilie Garcia
> Port Orchard, WA ----
> ----- Original
Message -----
> From: Arturo
>
Ramos<mailto:arturo.ramos2@...>
>
To:
>
ranchos@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:10
PM
> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos
>
Legitimos
>
>
> You know that's right
Elvira. I talk to the
> Nordic people at my
>
family history center and they cannot believe that
> there are even
> records for Mexico in the 1700s let alone records
>
that list maternal
> and paternal names up to the
grandparents... along
> with race/caste,
> etc.
As wrong as the motives may have been for
> maintaining all of
> this information... knowledge=control and the
>
maintainance of
> information like this was obviously meant
to
> categorize and keep
> people in their
place. Nevertheless this
> information gives us a
> beautiful window into the lives of our ancestors.
>
> Emilie: Neither my father nor I have been able to
>
locate my
> grandfather's birth certificate... either at
the
> civil registry in
> the town where he was born
nor in Gudadalajara. I
> think there were a
>
lot of records lost just before the revolution.
> The government in
> Mexico was very weak and then a lot of records
>
were destroyed. We
> are lucky we have been able to
find his baptismal
> records.
>
> I have a
similar issue in my father's lineage much
> further back. I
> have a gggg grandfather who was an "expuesto" and
>
whose background I
> cannot confirm. Even if his
adoptive father is
> his illegitimate
> father, two
generations futher back there is an
> illegimate child's
> birth whose baptismal records do not appear in
>
Mazapil, where he
> claims to have been born.
Somewhat frustrating.
>
> There is a book by Thomas
Calvo called la Nueva
> Galicia en los siglos
> XVI y
XVII. It is a pretty rigorous ethnologic
> study based on census
> and baptismal registry data that shows that
nearly
> 40% of children
> born in Nueva Galicia at
the end of the XVI
> century were illegitimate
> and
that family name transmittal was not very
> common in the area at
> the time. I think all of this is indicative
of
> our families being in
> such a challenging
frontier that was suffering a
> massive demographic
>
collapse. Families were being torn apart and
> survival often
required
> people being transient and adaptive.
>
> Have people gotten to this point in time where
>
their genealogies are
> still in the Ranchos area of Nueva
Galicia? I
> have definitely seen
> more and
more illegitimate births as I have gotten
> closer to this
> time period.
>
>
>
> --- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "elviraz"
>
<elviraz@e...> wrote:
> >
> >
Victor,
> >
> > Yes, you got it
right. The state has always made
> a second copy of
>
the records. The originals (when the book closes)
> get sent to the
> state capital and the second copy is supposed to
>
stay in the
> municipio it came from.
>
>
> > The registro civil in Zacatecas City
should
> have the copy of the
> tome in question
(let's hope that it survived la
> Toma de Zactecas).
> I had this problem with records from Durango.
The
> documents were
> found in the registro civil in
the city of
> Durango.
> >
>
> Like someone said before ' thank God the Spanish
> were compulsive
> record keepers". They taught the Mexicans
well!
> >
> >
Elvira
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: v.h.villarreal
> > To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 8:36
PM
> > Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de
Hijos
> Legitimos
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure if it has always been the
same
> but I understand that
> > civil
registry records are always made in
> duplicate; one for the
> local
> > office and a
copy for the State archives of
> the civil registry.
> So
> > even if the local
copy was burnt there's a
> chance that the State's
>
> copy survived. As I said, that is how it is
>
done today but I'm
> not
>
> sure if the same rule applied back in
1903.
> >
> > The other
question is where were the
> microfilms made, at the
local
> > office or at the state
office?
> >
> >
Victor
> >
> > --- In
ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie
> Garcia"
>
<auntyemfaustus@h...>
> >
wrote:
> > >
>
> > Victor, I was just going over the civil
> registry
records I have
> > checked and I haven't
found any trace of my
> father, aunt or
>
> grandmother, nor of a marriage record for my
>
grandfather Francisco
> > Olague and
grandmother Gorgonia Garcia. I
> checked
=== message truncated
===
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors'
Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
|
|
by Date 
-